KATHERYN BAKER
"BOB DYLAN DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH SONGS FOR AN ALBUM"......KATHERYN BAKER
Associated Press Reporter
1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 FOR THE CENTRAL DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY
3
4 JAMES DAMIANO, )
5 PLAINTIFF, ) CASE NO.
6 VS. ) 95CV4795(JBS)
7 SONY MUSIC ENTERTAINMENT, INC., )
8 AND BOB DYLAN, )
9 DEFENDANTS. )
10 -----------------------------------
11
12
13 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF:
14 KATHRYN BAKER
15 MONDAY, APRIL 1, 1996
16 10:17 A.M.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23 FILE NO. LL62034
24 REPORTED BY DAWSHA LAYLAND BAKER
25 C.S.R. NO. 5166
1
KERNS & GRADILLAS CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
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1 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF KATHRYN BAKER, THE
2 WITNESS, TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF, AT
3 10:17 A.M., MONDAY, APRIL 1, 1996, AT 9606 SANTA
4 MONICA BOULEVARD, BEVERLY HILLS, CALIFORNIA, BEFORE
5 DAWSHA LAYLAND BAKER, C.S.R. NO. 5166, PURSUANT TO
6 SUBPOENA.
7
8 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
9 FOR PLAINTIFF:
10 LAW OFFICES OF STEVEN M. KRAMER &
11 ASSOCIATES
12 BY: STEVEN M. KRAMER, ESQ.
13 150 WEST 56TH STREET
14 65TH FLOOR
15 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10019
16
17 FOR DEFENDANTS:
18 PARCHER & HAYES
19 BY: STEVEN M. HAYES, ESQ.
20 500 FIFTH AVENUE
21 38TH FLOOR
22 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10110
23
24 ALSO PRESENT: GEOFF MINGER, VIDEOGRAPHER
25 CHRISTIAN MARTINEZ
2
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1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE
3 KATHRYN BAKER BY MR. KRAMER 5, 37
4 BY MR. HAYES 19, 46
5
6 OBJECTIONS BY COUNSEL
7 PAGE LINE PAGE LINE PAGE LINE
8 25 17 29 21 37 17
9 42 6 43 14 43 21
10
11
12
13 E X H I B I T S
14 NO. PAGE DESCRIPTION
15 1 8 NEWSPAPER ARTICLE ENTITLED
16 "DYLAN SURVIVES CHANGIN' TIMES"
17 2 10 NEWSPAPER ARTICLE ENTITLED
18 "DYLAN: A REBEL MELLOWS"
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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KERNS & GRADILLAS CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
(310) 556-1136
1 BEVERLY HILLS, CALIFORNIA;
2 MONDAY, APRIL 1, 1996, 10:17 A.M.
3
4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
5 videotaped deposition of Kathryn Baker, in the
6 matter of Damiano versus Sony Music Entertainment,
7 Incorporated, and Bob Dylan. Today's date is
8 April 1st, 1996. The time is 10:17 a.m. This
9 recording is taking place at 9606 Santa Monica
10 Boulevard, in Beverly Hills, California.
11 My name is Geoff Minger, a notary
12 public in the state of California. I represent
13 Kerns & Gradillas Video Services, located at
14 9320 Wilshire Boulevard in Beverly Hills,
15 California.
16 This deposition is being videotaped on
17 behalf of the plaintiff. I am neither counsel for,
18 employed by or related to any party in this action,
19 nor am I interested in the outcome thereof.
20 Counsel, please introduce yourselves
21 and state your appearance.
22 MR. KRAMER: Steven Kramer, on behalf
23 of the plaintiff.
24 MR. HAYES: Steven Hayes, the firm of
25 Parcher & Hayes, for the defendants.
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1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the
2 record. Would the court reporter please swear in
3 the witness.
4
5 KATHRYN BAKER,
6 having been first duly sworn, was
7 examined and testified as follows:
8
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. KRAMER:
11 Q. Miss Baker, good morning.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. This deposition is being taken
14 pursuant to notice and subpoena. Did you receive a
15 subpoena to appear here?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. And what is your profession, ma'am?
18 A. I'm a writer.
19 Q. And by whom are you employed
20 currently?
21 A. Currently Spelling Entertainment.
22 Q. In what capacity?
23 A. I'm executive story editor on the show
24 "Melrose Place."
25 Q. Was there a time that you were
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1 employed or in some way affiliated with the
2 Associated Press?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And when was that, ma'am?
5 A. From 1981 until 1989.
6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
7 10:19 a.m. We're off the record.
8 (Discussion held off the record.)
9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
10 10:19 a.m. We're back on the record.
11 BY MR. KRAMER:
12 Q. Miss Baker, during the time 1981 to
13 1989 that you were affiliated with the Associated
14 Press, what was your position or profession?
15 A. Variously I was the staff
16 writer/editor the last three years. I believe from
17 1986 to 1989 I was the television critic, but I also
18 wrote other entertainment features.
19 Q. What is the Associated Press?
20 A. It's a cooperative of thousands of
21 newspapers. It's a wire service.
22 Q. Okay. And is it fair to say that it's
23 stationed or represented all over the country?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And where were you represented?
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1 A. At the time in question, the last
2 three years I was with them, I was in New York.
3 Q. Okay. And in your capacity as a
4 writer for the Associated Press, did you, from time
5 to time, conduct interviews of various personalities
6 and stars and celebrities and such?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Could you give us an idea of
9 just a few examples?
10 A. Well, as television critic, I
11 interviewed people like David Letterman and various
12 television stars. Probably Dylan, who I interviewed
13 in 1988 -- was probably -- if anybody asked me who
14 was the biggest star I interviewed, it was probably
15 him.
16 Q. And as you know, you're here today
17 concerning an interview that you conducted with
18 Mr. Dylan. You understand that?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. When was that interview conducted,
21 ma'am?
22 A. August 5th, 1988.
23 Q. Okay. And in preparation for today's
24 appearance here, did you review any notes?
25 A. Yes, I reviewed the transcript of the
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1 tape.
2 Q. Okay. And does a tape recording
3 exist?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. KRAMER: And let me show you a
6 copy -- or a portion of a copy of the article. This
7 is the only copy that we have, and I'll ask the
8 court reporter to first mark it as Exhibit 1 to this
9 deposition and please attach it to the transcript.
10 (The document referred to was
11 marked by the C.S.R. as Plaintiff's
12 Exhibit 1 for identification and
13 attached to and made a part of this
14 deposition.)
15 BY MR. KRAMER:
16 Q. Would you be kind enough to look at
17 that document and if you can identify it, please do
18 so, Miss Baker.
19 A. Yeah. This is the story that I wrote
20 that ran on the wire based on that interview.
21 Q. What is the title of this article,
22 ma'am?
23 A. This particular newspaper, it says
24 "Dylan Survives Changin' Times." The newspapers
25 put their own headline on the story. I'm not sure
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1 what the headline we put on it was.
2 Q. It says "By Kathryn Baker, Associated
3 Press Writer, Beverly Hills, California."
4 Are you that Kathryn Baker?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. HAYES: The copy I have just has
7 two pages and seems to refer to there being another
8 page.
9 MR. KRAMER: Yes. Those are the only
10 two pages that we have. I was going to ask
11 Ms. Baker.
12 Q. Do you have a complete copy of this at
13 some location?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And would you be willing, at
16 your convenience, to provide both myself and
17 Mr. Hayes with a copy of that --
18 A. Okay. Sure.
19 Q. -- so that we could have a complete
20 copy?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. HAYES: I have a copy here today
23 which I'll be happy to have you mark, instead. The
24 only problem I have, the first part of it is a
25 little less clear.
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1 MR. KRAMER: Why don't we mark this as
2 Exhibit 2.
3 MR. HAYES: That's fine. That will
4 provide the third page.
5 MR. KRAMER: Great.
6 (The document referred to was
7 marked by the C.S.R. as Plaintiff's
8 Exhibit 2 for identification and
9 attached to and made a part of this
10 deposition.)
11 BY MR. KRAMER:
12 Q. Would you be kind enough to look at
13 what is now Exhibit 2, Miss Baker, and tell me if
14 that appears to be the complete article, complete
15 interview that appeared.
16 A. Yes, it does.
17 Q. Did you tape-record this interview?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in preparation today, did you
20 compare what appears in the article with the actual
21 tape or the transcript of the tape?
22 A. With the transcript of the tape.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. Which I previously had compared with
25 the tape, so the transcript is accurate.
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1 Q. Okay. And where did this interview
2 take place between yourself and Mr. Dylan?
3 A. It was over dinner at a restaurant
4 called Il Cielo here in Beverly Hills.
5 Q. Do you recall when it took place?
6 A. August 5th, 1988 in the evening,
7 sometime around 7:00 or 8:00 o'clock, something like
8 that.
9 Q. Was anyone else present at the table
10 with you?
11 A. Yes, Elliot Mintz, who was at the time
12 Bob Dylan's publicist.
13 Q. Does his voice, from time to time,
14 appear on the tape?
15 A. A couple of times.
16 Q. Would you describe for the jury your
17 process, then, if you had one, of how you would go
18 about conducting an interview in connection with
19 having the tape recording?
20 In other words, what is the purpose of
21 having a tape recorder there during the interview?
22 A. Well, I particularly like to rely on a
23 tape recorder rather than taking notes because it's
24 easier to conduct a more casual conversation with
25 someone.
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1 In this particular instance, I had the
2 tape recorder on the table and even had a little
3 mike, so he was very aware that he was being
4 tape-recorded. That way you don't have to take any
5 notes.
6 We were having dinner, so it made it a
7 little easier, and then the hard part is having to
8 transcribe the entire tape which also included
9 dinner.
10 Q. And who actually physically
11 transcribed that tape?
12 A. Elliot Mintz provided a transcriber
13 because it is a lot of work to do it and I needed to
14 get the story out -- AP wanted me to get the story
15 out relatively soon because it was an exclusive
16 interview. So I let him do that.
17 I took the transcript and went through
18 it with the tape. I didn't have to do the actual
19 typing -- in fact, when I went through the
20 transcript, I noticed where I had made too little
21 corrections to make sure that the quotes in the
22 transcript exactly matched what was on the tape.
23 Q. Okay. And are you comfortable today
24 that the transcript, with your corrections, is an
25 accurate transcription of the tape?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Would you be kind enough to
3 look at Exhibit 1. And I've turned it over to at
4 least what appears to be the second page of the
5 interview.
6 A. Mm-hmm.
7 Q. And the right-hand half of the page.
8 A. Mm-hmm.
9 Q. I'm going to read a couple of
10 sentences. And after I read each one, my question
11 will be the same, and that is: Did Mr. Dylan say
12 that?
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. Do you understand?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. If you would look, ma'am,
17 towards the next to the last column of that page,
18 what appears to be the third or fourth paragraph
19 from the bottom, it says -- let's start at the top
20 so we can put it in context.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. I think it probably makes more sense.
23 Actually, let's go to the bottom
24 left-hand side of the page, "The album."
25 Do you see where I have --
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. "The album" --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Let's pick it up there. "The album"
5 reads -- I'm reading from the interview that appears
6 in the Associated Press August 1988, Exhibit 1,
7 quote -- and these are your words, I take it, until
8 we actually see quotes.
9 "The album surprised some
10 critics because it is mostly covers of
11 other composers' songs."
12 Could you explain to the jury what the
13 word "covers" means in that context?
14 A. That's when an artist records a song
15 that was written by another songwriter.
16 Q. So in this context, this refers to
17 songs recorded by Mr. Dylan on his album, but that
18 had been written by other composers?
19 A. Actually, I -- this -- I --
20 technically "covers" means redoing a song that's
21 been recorded by someone else.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. So I'm not sure that's entirely
24 accurate. I'm sure all these songs were recorded
25 sometime before.
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1 Q. Okay. But, in essence, these -- you
2 were referring to songs recorded by him, but that
3 had been composed by other people?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. You then continue, quote:
6 "There are only two Dylan
7 originals, plus two collaborations
8 with Grateful Dead songwriter Robert
9 Hunter, including the single," quote,
10 "'Silvio,'" unquote.
11 Would it be fair to state Grateful
12 Dead is a very famous rock and roll band?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Okay. Then you continue:
15 "Dylan said he picked the
16 other material because he liked it.
17 Quote, "'Down in the Groove,'"
18 unquote, "establishes Dylan as a
19 recording artist and arranger with the
20 strength of style to transcend the
21 source of the material."
22 You wrote those words?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And then you write what appears to be
25 a quote from Mr. Dylan, and then I'll ask you if it
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1 is, in fact, such. Quote:
2 "'There's no rule that claims
3 that anyone must write their own
4 songs,'" unquote, "he says."
5 Miss Baker, did Mr. Dylan say those
6 words?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And when you use the words "he says,"
9 is that Mr. Dylan says?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You continue with, quote:
12 "'And I do. I write a lot of
13 songs. But so what, you know? You
14 could take another song somebody else
15 has written and you can make it
16 yours. I'm not saying I made a
17 definitive version of anything with
18 this last record, but I liked the
19 songs. Every so often you've gotta
20 sing songs that're out there. You
21 just have to, just to keep yourself
22 straight.'"
23 Did Mr. Dylan say those words?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You then continue without quotes:
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1 "The other reason for the
2 others is inevitable: He didn't" --
3 d-i-d-n-'t, as in did not -- "He
4 didn't have enough material of his own
5 for an album."
6 Did Mr. Dylan say those words?
7 A. I went back in the transcript and I
8 was paraphrasing him and that's not entirely
9 accurate. He said he didn't have enough songs that
10 he wanted to put on an album.
11 Q. You then continue, quote:
12 "'Writing is like such an
13 isolated thing. You're in such an
14 isolated frame of mind.'"
15 Did Mr. Dylan say that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You continue, quote:
18 "'You have to get into or be
19 in that place.'"
20 Did Mr. Dylan say that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Quote:
23 "'In the old days, I could
24 get to it real quick.'"
25 Did Mr. Dylan say that?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Quote:
3 "'I can't'" -- c-a-n-'t, as
4 in cannot -- "'I can't get to it like
5 that no more. It's not that simple.'"
6 Did Mr. Dylan say those words?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You continue, ma'am, quote:
9 "'I mean, just being able to
10 shut yourself off for long periods of
11 time, where you're so isolated, no one
12 can get to you, mentally or
13 physically, you know.'"
14 Did Mr. Dylan say those words?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You continue, quote:
17 "'You need to be able to do
18 that in order to come up with that
19 kind of stuff.'"
20 Did Mr. Dylan say that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You continue, ma'am, quote:
23 "'You're always capable of it
24 in your youth, and especially if
25 you're an unknown and nobody cares --
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1 like if you're an anonymous person.'"
2 Did he say those words?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. "He" being Mr. Dylan?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. You continue, quote:
7 "'But once that all ends,
8 then you have to create not only what
9 you want to do, but you have to create
10 the environment to do it in, which is
11 double hard.'"
12 Did Mr. Dylan say those words?
13 A. Yes.
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